Experimental Sounding Rocket Certifications?

3/25/2012

I successfully launched and recovered a high-power rocket yesterday for my Tripoli "Level 1" certification at the Utah Rocket Club sport launch. I was hoping to have a Level 2 rocket ready to fly as well, but it's not finished. To be honest, I was never that interested in hobby/model rockets as a kid, or in high power rockets where you have to use a motor that someone else designed and made. I was woefully ignorant of how the reloadable grain fit into the motor case, which then fit into the motor tube in the kit rocket--I'm used to building my own hybrid motors for scratch-built rockets. That got me thinking that perhaps that's something that ESRA could do in the future--have similar Level 1,2,3 certifications based on the same total impulse classes, but with self-built motors (solid, hybrid, or even liquid). Tripoli has its Research program, but you still need to go through the standard certification process requiring you buy expensive motor reloads and (and cases, if you can't borrow them) which you may never use again if you prefer to build your own motors. Certainly there's a lot to be learned by going through the standard certification process (my first Level 1 attempt a while back had a hard impact with some fin damage because I had packed the parachute incorrectly), but it seems reasonable to allow home-built motors provided sufficient static testing has been accomplished. The Tripoli and NAR high power rules are based on NFPA 1127, and having ESRA rules that allow homebuilt motors would probably need to be worked out with the NFPA. Just a thought, and this would be somewhere down the road...

13 Comments

Rick Wills

8/16/2012 09:19:56 am

Paul

Nice work on the college competition. The University of Dayton rocket club has folded. I am now a member of a odd mix of turbine guys and a few rocket types. The new group calls itself Midwest Propulsion Group. The rocket side is still working on liquids and sugar KNO3 solids. The turbine guys have three turbines they are working on. They want to put them into go carts and the like. If you ever get in the Cincinnati-Dayton Ohio area, look me up.

Take care and be safe, Rick Wills

Rick Maschek

8/7/2013 08:14:51 am

I taught chemistry and was the advisor for a school rocket club. In over 20 years of doing rocketry we never had so much as a scratch. At a Safety/Risk Management meeting, having my students make their own propellants was brought up; I was later told students could not be involved with propellant manufacturing even though the schools sports program has numerous injuries EVERY YEAR! Rocketry was deemed 'hazardous'.

We then had to use commercial motors that cost much more, and resulted in reducing the amount of flying opportunities. About half of the students dropped out since they were interested in the propulsion side of rocketry. While the payload of a rocket is important, it doesn't go anywhere without a propulsion system. Doing your own rocket motors can be done safely when the right precautions are exercised...just how dangerous is a rocket launched with commercial motors coming down ballistic or even the simple act of driving down the highway?

If a team has advisors/mentors that are experienced with experimental motors there should be no problem with students using such motors under proper supervision and testing.

christopher nyerges link

11/3/2014 10:54:55 am

Are you the same Rick Maschek who taught me to make igloos?
I'd love to keep in touch...

Rick Maschek link

11/4/2014 06:02:30 am

Yes I am. As a science teacher, I've always loved doing lots of things. Besides building igloos in the mountains I also dig dinosaurs and climb on active volcanoes (I'm a geologist by education). I now mentor students groups building rockets and am on two amateur projects to send a rocket into space. This past summer I helped the CSXT Go Fast team launch their rocket into space at Black Rock.

8/7/2013 08:31:22 am

While there is nothing wrong with commercial motor use, an example of the difference in cost for an M impulse motor is $25 for KNO3/sugar vs $200+ for commercial reload.

8/7/2013 12:11:19 pm

Rick

I agree, anyone who hasn't worked in the experimental high end stuff needs some advice to be safe.

The Midwest Propulsion Group just purchased a 2.5 gallon ultrasonic cleaner; this will ensure we clean the LOX parts safely. I agree a $25 M is much cheaper than the commercial motors.

We should think about some sort of list for information needed for would be experimental rocket types. California has a level 3 rocket certification, what would be needed for a voluntary national rocket certification for liquids and solids.

Rick Wills
[email protected]

1/31/2019 11:15:23 am

Rick, I wasn't quite sure what you meant by level 3 rocket certification (NAR TRA Level certs?) but then it dawned on me, I think you are referring to the State Pyro Operators certifications.

What that means is that you need to have the appropriate class of Pyro Opps at any rocketry event in California and that often makes things difficult...if you can't find one you can't launch and often have to pay someone to be there...as much as several hundred dollars a day and you still have to do your own LCO and RSO of rockets. My experience has been the pyro opps more often than not are there just to get paid and satisfy the state requirement so it is best if you can get one or more of your rocket members in California to get their Pyro Opps, the easiest is for commercial motors only, the next is for experimental solids and the last level is for any type rocket motor.

mario

12/26/2013 10:12:49 am

we should learn the principals first of fuselage- fins -payleod in bought moters which were rigousley tested and move up levels slowly and everyone wants to fly big moters, their should be a project at schools for launching 1/2 A eastes moter with scratch built model rockets to 1000 ft now that's a challenge in areodynamics

Dennis Yeh

2/2/2015 03:33:16 pm

I'm quite a bit late to this discussion, but this sounds like a fun idea. The NAR safety code actually specifically disallows homemade rocket motors, for safety and liability reasons (it's difficult to prove that you know what you're doing, and it keeps the hobby legal, safe, and insured). However, there is an annual launch in Nevada, BALLS, where amateur rocketeers come from all over the country to fly their projects that can't be flown at regular launches (in fact, ONLY homemade motors or other disallowed projects can be flown).

Most of what I've learned in my courses treats everything from a theoretical perspective. The NAR/Tripoli certification process is the exact opposite, treating everything from a mostly experimental basis - with rules of thumb and programs like RockSim, RAS Aero, and BurnSim doing all the theoretical work. Even so, as I'm sure you've found out, both the theoretical and experimental perspectives are needed to successfully fly rockets of any kind.

I've been fortunate enough to meet many amateur rocketeers at NAR/Tripoli launches - most of whom have been launching rockets for just as long as I've been alive. Even though they couldn't draw/analyze a rocket exhaust's shock diagram or use a 2D method of characteristics to design an exhaust nozzle, they have all done things I have yet to even try, like a 5 K cluster on a scale model of a Saturn V, or launching a staged P to an N, or flying a home-made Q motor to over 100k feet AGL.

Please let me know if ESRA decides to do these sort of "certifications" outside of IREC! Me and several of my friends would love to participate :)

1/31/2019 11:25:20 am

Hi Dennis,
NAR doesn't allow ANY homemade motors, period. It is their organization and if you want to be a member and go to their events you follow their rules.

TRA allows a limited amount of homemade experimental motors (they call them 'research' motors and often their events in many states are 'research' events meaning you can fly both commercial and or homemade motors if they are built according to the TRA research safety code. Most motors I fly and some of the ESRA IREC team motors do not meet that (I usually fly steel nozzles).

There was an effort a few years ago for a third organization ARSA, that tried to go one step further than what TRA allows but never really got off the ground. In California, we have a facility, the FAR site, that allows just about any type of amateur rocket motor. www.friendsofamateurrocketry.org

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1/29/2019 06:07:19 pm

Hello, Paul you keep on making mazing things! Congratulations for the recent launching of the rockets you did. It was also a good thing that Utah Rocket Club sport launch have supported your cause and made everything possible. As a kid, I never had the interest about rockets too. But I am quite amazed with your recent achievement and how I wish there is still time to develop time and passion for rocket launching. There are lots of things I need to know about this matter, and I would love to hear from you!

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